Podcast

00:00 - Justin (Guest)
Wherever you want to specialize, in your neighborhood or your parents' neighborhood or somewhere that you're comfortable with, where you want to target just getting to know all the players, because, especially when you start off, you're so scatterbrained at times. Keep it simple and then build upon identifying who are the players there and, obviously, to market yourself and farm that said area. 

00:23 - Intro (Host)
Welcome to America's Inner Circle, the podcast that dives deep into the stories, strategies and secrets of the most successful real estate agents in the game. Whether you're an aspiring agent, a seasoned pro or just love a good success story, you're in the right place. Each episode, we sit down with top agents who share their journey from the ground up how they overcame challenges, seized opportunities and made their mark in the competitive world of real estate. Ready to learn from the best, let's unlock the keys to real estate success together. Here is your peek into the Inner Circle. 

01:02 - Mel (Host)
Hi, this is Mel Allen, your host of the Inner Circle podcast, and this is a podcast where we're diving deep into the stories of some of the most successful real estate agents in the country. If you want to learn how to establish yourself as a top agent, you're in the right spot, and today we're honored to have Justin Wong from the East Bay area of California. Justin, welcome. 

01:23 - Justin (Guest)
Hey, good to be here. I'm excited, I'm excited. 

01:26 - Mel (Host)
Well, let's start, you know, by kind of looking at some of your background in this industry, so kind of how long have you been doing this and what are some of the areas that you've kind of come to specialize in along the way? 

01:38 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, sure, so I've been. I mean, I can't believe it, but I've been doing commercial real estate. I, you know, headed straight into it, uh, commercial real estate versus residential. I've been doing it for about nine, going on ten years. Um, I guess my epiphany into commercial real estate was I was always, you know, in sales, business development. 

01:59
Uh, right around 27 28, I had my realization saying, like, for the job that I do, which was not real estate, is this something that you want to do in the long term? And I looked in the mirror and said no, I've always had a family, my father specifically. He started with house flips, duplexes, fourplexes, multifamilies and stuff, and you know, I've always been in that background of, especially as a kid, using real estate as a vehicle to not only get wealth in that sense but also do things outside of the rat race. From the nine to five, my father he worked in the US Postal Service and that was a great career for him, but he wanted to do other things, obviously, and so I took that in mind and I dove into real estate. I was actually working in downtown LA prior, moved back to the Bay Area, got my license and got seated up with a brokerage that I trusted, and then I won't say the rest is history, but there's so much more to that journey in that sense. But that's how I got plugged into real estate. 

03:21 - Mel (Host)
That's definitely really interesting. I mean coming from a childhood where flipping houses was kind of a normal for you, so you saw a side of real estate that a lot of people are just kind of like maybe I could get into that and you're like no, that's where I started. It was on the back of my mind. 

03:36 - Justin (Guest)
I went to college, UC Irvine, I did business, econ, but I did not have the intent of going into real estate. I was always around it and I remember between me and my sisters like on a Sunday we'd go to like a random property and pull weeds. You had a glamorous life of real estate back then and I'm like why are we doing this? It's not even our property. He's like I know, it's our investment, you know. 

04:03 - Mel (Host)
Right, no, that's yeah. So in our property, he's like, yeah, I know it's, it's our investment. You know, right, right, no, that's yeah. So it's a different way of thinking about property that, uh, yeah, a lot of people are are not familiar with. So now you mentioned that you have a you, you you have a brokerage that you work for a team around you, or do you? Are you on your own now? 

04:17 - Justin (Guest)
Uh team. It's a. It's a very small team and I'm always going to be Rookie of the Year because it's a very older, tenured commercial real estate team. It's a small team. I think it's only about three, four of us now in San Francisco with SVN commercial real estate and I came in as the youngest and I've remained the youngest and that's okay. I mean, I know commercial real estate can be, from what people have told me, like an old boys club and I get that and thankfully, throughout my years I've paid my dues and gotten better with every transaction and I can talk about my deals with a lot more confidence than I did before. 

04:57 - Mel (Host)
Well, that's good. Speaking of talking about your deals and where you started out, what was the first deal that you put together and, kind of, how did that launch you? I? 

05:07 - Justin (Guest)
mean the first first deal was small. It was a commercial lease deal retail. You know, mom and pop that wanted like a 2000 square foot retail space and that was fun in that sense and I'd say, in regards to the sales side, I went into duplexes and triplexes and fourplexes and then I started to. You know, I've done up to 35 units for multifamily, oh wow. 

05:35
But what I've learned with every sort of product type is you have a different set of buyers and sellers and a different hurdle of challenges. Some clients aren't as sophisticated, more mom and pop, and the other ones are more tenured and they're savvy business people and I understand that. So it's just you learn little things along the way and that's okay and I'd say that I, you know, I guess within my niche I like multifamily. Going back to, you know, my father and tenants and units. That's something that I've always kind of held on and feel good about. But in that sense, a lot of times you'll have multifamily people that get tired of you know, managing these tenants. It's a lot more strenuous. So they look to sell their multifamily and look into something that's a little bit low maintenance, something out of states retail with triple net. I could talk about that later on but something that could get a high return with less headache. So I kind of go back and forth between retail and multifamily and that's kind of how it came to be over the last couple of years. 

06:52 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, well, it sounds like in your line of work you're having a lot of moments where you're teaching people, but you also have a lot of moments where you're learning about the clients and how their needs probably shift over the years too. 

07:03 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, I'd say, especially in the Bay Area there's clients that are very successful and you know they got into real estate at the right time. Like it's crazy. Like you know, in the 60s, the 70s I had this one client that used to work for the city of Oakland. So he was very cognizant of, you know, permitting and zoning and he found dist properties and he built his quote-unquote real estate empire. But now he's getting up there in age and he can't manage everything. So he's learning to try to divest and I won't say right off into the sunset, but let his cash, kind of he doesn't work as hard for his cash. Let's just say that Right? 

07:41 - Mel (Host)
yeah, he wants his cash to start working for him more now. Yeah. 

07:45 - Justin (Guest)
You know, and he's a little bit more old school where he really should outsource it to more property management in that sense, but they choose to, since it's in their area, they choose to be a little bit more involved, which I don't know how they do it, but you know, each to them Right. 

08:06 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah, it definitely takes a lot to be uh, to be involved in in properties that you uh, that you own in an area. I mean, I've only been involved in that slightly, but, uh, you know everybody that I know who does it. It's it it seems like it's a full-time job on top of a full-time job. So, um, what were some of the moments that you know, uh made you realize that this really was the right path for you? Like, you know, obviously, selling it, you know making a deal is good, getting that, you know, getting that check is great, but what was it? You were like I really want to keep doing this. 

08:40 - Justin (Guest)
I'd say it was 10 units in the Bay Area, but just underwriting it itself. It was one of those deals where what we call it like a cover land play. I mean that you could get income in the present, get cash flow, but it was on a huge lot. And so a cover land play is you can take the cash in the present with its current use, but down the road. You know, right now it's not a great time for developments, but down the road should it be more favorable to develop and with construction costs and whatnot you could, you could tear it down and you can make a. 

09:16
I had to. It wasn't just a straightforward hey, sell this multifamily, you know, and it's done. My marketing was I had to paint a picture saying you know, sure you can do it right now, but there's so much more you can do. Here's the zoning. And I had to be very much. I had to know it, I had to be very sharp with it, I had to check with the city everything else that comes with it. 

09:48
And the good part about that transaction was I was tested mightily by the buyers that came. They had a slew of questions and just having your eggs lined up, it was a tougher property. The reason why I say it was a cover land play was it wasn't in the best part of town but it had potential. Sure, you're getting cash flow with these said tenants. It's a big lot Down the road you can do said intended use and so to market it and paint that picture and work with these buyers. It took a long. Yeah, like I said, it's not the best part of town, so it took a much longer expected period to get the deal done. But when I was done with that deal I felt so much more, I learned so much more and I felt so much more accomplished to get the whole spectrum of commercial real estate, of underwriting it both in the present and in the long term. 

10:43 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, there's a value proposition there that you were able to see, able to get the client to understand and kind of like all of the value of that just to yourself and kind of going through that process it sounds like was really valuable and really pivotal for you. 

10:57 - Justin (Guest)
Right, and you know no disrespect or no you know whatever to those that do residential. But you know, underwriting that specific deal really challenged me about both the present and the long-term and just it was pretty cool in that sense. 

11:13 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, on paper, having two properties, it's like you're going to make X amount of dollars off this, but this one is built out. There's nothing else that can happen there other than knock down and rebuild. But this one you've you've got options, and options can be really valuable. I mean, it can be challenging and can be scary. I think sometimes the people but you know, helping people see the value in those options Sounds like it was. It was it was the right thing for you. 

11:38 - Justin (Guest)
Right and I'd say recently and then the last couple of years, because the market hasn't been good for commercial real estate. I'm getting better, or upping my game too, because to make some of these commercial deals, not everyone always has cash on hand right now, in terms of cash leverage and finding the right buyer, in the sense where cash is hard to come by, especially for distressed properties, looking into different value propositions to get the deal done, like seller financing. It's a lot harder to find the right buyer in a tougher market. Sure, there's opportunity out there in a tougher market for commercial real estates, but to hone it down and actually close the deal, that's another factor that I am heavily feeling the last couple of years. 

12:25 - Mel (Host)
Yeah Well, I mean that sounds like it's a pretty challenging time. I mean, have you had, you know, some of those most particular challenges in in these most recent years, or is there one that you can think of that that may be? You know, looked like it was going to be a failure at first, but you've you know. You overcame that. You actually turned it into a successful move. 

12:44 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, going back to, I guess these cover land plays, but there was this one distressed property. It was pretty rough. Now that I think about it, I did it last year where you couldn't get typical financing. I won't say it was horrible, but there were a lot of things that from a traditional loan perspective you're not going to get it approved. So what they did was the buyer, you know, put some cash in, also did a hard money loan and also got the seller to finance 40% of the deal as well and piece it together. And the hardest part for the seller was the seller had never done seller financing. It was something that they weren't accustomed to. It's something where you put it in the market, you cash out easily in that sense, and having that conversation saying if you really want to sell this property truly you want to sell this property at this point in the market, we're going to have to get a little bit more creative to close the deal. 

13:46 - Mel (Host)
Right, yeah, the best way sometimes isn't the way that you want it to happen. 

13:51 - Justin (Guest)
Exactly, and everyone wants the best, the cleanest transaction, the best price and whatnot. But just looking at reality of how things are, do you want to get the deal done or do you want to let it sit on the market? 

14:05 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, and I'm sure from the client's perspective that was a bit of a but a bit of a risk. 

14:10 - Justin (Guest)
you know that they weren't sure that they wanted to to take Exactly, exactly, and at the end of the day we we got the deal done it. 

14:18 - Mel (Host)
It took a little bit more pulling a little bit more tug, but that's part of real estate. Yeah, Speaking of risks and speaking of you know, hey, that's real estate. What are some risks that maybe that you've? 

14:41 - Justin (Guest)
taken times that you've kind of gone out of your comfort zone to make some of these happens and where you mean I'll be straight up just to make sure that, amidst these conversations and these offers that I get, is to really stick to my gun, done what is ethical. 

14:51
There are a lot of things where you get some very interesting deals of how they write it, credit back here. We're going to do this particular loan, write the deal like this, but then the actual price is going to be X, y, z, but you're going to get a higher selling price, right. I think the biggest thing is like the barrier to entry for this industry is, for all intents and purposes, it's not that hard in that sense. So you get a slew of, you know, I have a handful of agents that I love working with and then there's some agents that aren't as favorable in that sense. And I would say you know, in regards to doing the right thing and obviously not getting to any legality, trouble and the best interest of your clients, you've got to be very cognizant of some of these conversations that come your way. 

15:36 - Mel (Host)
Right, right. Yeah, I'm sure that you could be in a sticky situation, depending somehow on the you know, the creative financing. I mean, I'm familiar with that myself. On one of the houses that I purchased, I asked actually the seller to ask for a higher price in negotiations and then to kick some of that back to us just because it put us into a better financing zone. And it worked out, but they were kind of like I feel like I'm breaking some law and I'm like no, no, it's you know. 

16:08 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, and having that conversation too. Some things I get it, other things I'm like, uh, I don't know. Yeah. I want to be attached to this, exactly, exactly and uh, especially for some of these bigger deals. Yeah, no it, it would. It would amplify. It's not just a single family house, it's like an apartment complex, right, yeah, yeah. 

16:28 - Mel (Host)
Well, I think you know, talking to you in this brief period of time, I can tell that you probably don't have a poker face. Would you say that you know, kind of letting your emotions show to your clients is something that sets you apart from others, or what is it that sets you apart from others who are in your industry? 

16:47 - Justin (Guest)
Well, I'm a cancer, meaning that I have my heart on my sleeve. My sisters and my mom has told me that I guess. But I'd say I guess my tenacity, my energy is something that's always my charisma, I suppose, is something that I often get in regards to feedback. But you know, the biggest thing about commercial real estate, at least from my own internal conflicts, is I have a younger face too. I don't know if it's because I'm Asian, I look a bit younger. But especially when you start in commercial real estate, it's an older crowd and you have older clients and you have older agents. So for myself, I might not have, you know, it's nine years now but first starting off I might not have as much experience in transactions, but for every listing appointment, for every showing, I better make sure that I know my stuff. I got to be that much sharper, and so maybe that's that energy, that charisma that I put out there of letting it all all in, is the reason why I'm able to win my clients. 

17:52 - Mel (Host)
So, hey, you know I don't have any commercial holdings or anything right now, but you know, if I was interested in that area, you know I'd certainly be calling you. Yeah, I appreciate it. So you know, obviously not everything's on the up and up and we've all seen ebbs and flows. When you're, you know, in charge of, you know, making sure that you get paid, how do you persevere through those times when there are, you know, some slower market periods? 

18:18 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously you got to save for rainy days and you're not always going to be having killer years, especially the last couple of years. That's one thing to keep in mind. Another thing too is as much as I like sales, commercial leasing is another vehicle for commercial real estate that keeps the lights open. In that sense I mentioned one of my first deals was like a 2,000 square foot retail lease. I mean, the know the commission wasn't that crazy. But oftentimes, you know, being within my network, I'm the commercial guy and I appreciate everyone's consideration. I do get leads but more times than not they're not to sell. 

18:56
You know a 10-unit apartment or you know this big listing Oftentimes it's. You know small businesses that are looking to open a restaurant or a retail space and you know I'll qualify them as best as I can I can. You know, given my experience, that you know I'll let them know what I can and can't do. But that's another thing that you know I'm certainly able to do, especially during harder times, and I will say this I've done a couple recently. I've done a couple of office deals because, as you know, downtown office, especially in San Francisco, isn't too favorable right now. But I will say that they do pay tenant rep agents a lot more to bring a good, reputable tenant into said office space. Oh, there you go. You know they're like back in my day, you know it was like five dollars a square foot, but now we're only asking for like $3 a square foot. And you know, if you have a good tenant, you kind of hold the cards and they kind of roll out the red carpet for you. If you have a good tenant, Nice. 

19:52 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's good to maintain those relationships with some of those clients over the years, for a lot of reasons obviously no-transcript. 

20:19 - Justin (Guest)
Is this a long-term ordeal? Are you going to use the real estate as an owner user term ordeal? Are you going to use the real estate as an owner user? Just understanding those dynamics and based off of my experience, I'll try to guide them as best as I can. I think the biggest thing is what I found that you get more respect from your clients is actually disagreeing with them. Having those harder conversations saying, well, did you think about this factor, or what about this, or what about this scenario? Yeah, so the conversations that aren't as smooth, I can't always be a yes man. Oftentimes, when they circle back, they're like you know what? You had a good point, I didn't think about that, thank you. 

20:56 - Mel (Host)
Yeah yeah, disagreeing doesn't always mean arguing and I think that sometimes people have a hard time, you know, kind of thinking like well, geez, you know, if I disagree with them it's going to sink this deal. And I've always found that people, if you tell them about, you know some of these concerns, some of these realities you know in the way that they're thinking, that they may not have perceived. That's why you're there I mean you're there to you know, to help them understand. You know benefits or risks that they may not see on their own. That's, you know. That's a big part of, I think, your job. 

21:27 - Justin (Guest)
Commercial real estate right now because it's a tougher market. When I do my broker opinion of value on these properties, I try to be as real as I can with them saying you know, maybe their expectation is the price is here. I think it's here, why Right? 

21:44 - Mel (Host)
Right, right, yeah, you should be able to educate them on it. You should have the knowledge to not just be like, no, it's here and you know that wouldn't be a very power. That discussion wouldn't lead anywhere, I would think. 

21:55 - Justin (Guest)
There are and there are other people too that will quote unquote, buy the listing, saying, yeah, you know, I, I think it's such a high price, Let me get the listing, and then it'll sit on the market. And then you know they'll ask for a price reduction and be like, oh you know, it just didn't work out and he ended up selling the actual property at the price that was. Kind of hits me. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, that's how I evaluated the property and it sold at that number anyways, but you wasted a ton of time and effort, yeah. 

22:23
I don't know it's going back to like my strategy. I try to be as pragmatic, as real as I can and tell my side of the story of how I view the property. But you know other people have different strategies, so whatever. 

22:36 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah Well, I mean, sometimes you know what you want to do and what you can do. You can't always bridge those gaps, but doing what you can, you know actually trying to be real, trying to be forthcoming with all these things. You know it can take a little bit of time. How do you make sure that you're, you know, taking that time to educate your clients? But you know, balancing the work life, you know combination and making sure that you also have time to actually enjoy your life while you're in the middle of some of those demands. 

23:06 - Justin (Guest)
I'd say the good thing about pickup basketball is I've been doing it for so long and I think for me, health, just being active, is a big part of my life. It's actually therapeutic in that sense. I play ball every Wednesday night from 730 to 10 and then every Saturday morning from 10 to 12.30. That's, you know, no buts, no ifs, ands. Like that's something that I'm committed to. And having said that, like I'm super competitive and whether it's real estate or trying to get the game winning points, it's something that kind of resonates anyways. And having said that, like it's it's good to be in good health, I do things such as meditation, just trying to wake up early, you know, going to the gym, having my moments as well, cause once the day fully starts, I mean it can get a little, especially in real estate, it can be a little chaotic. I mean you have to go from one one part of the Bay area to the next and you know that's okay, that comes with the business. 

24:08 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, well, you know, and I think some of these things that people have a hard time doing is looking at things with yourself. As you know, that's a meeting, right, and that meeting can be just as important as a meeting that you're having with a client, you know. So, your pickup game while somebody who doesn't enjoy basketball may not understand how important that is to you, you still know that it is, and I think that that's the important thing that a lot of people need to realize is that, yeah, you have those business things you have to do. You have to set up time to file all of the things you have to file for clients Super important. But meditating, waking up early, playing pickup basketball, I mean, do you agree? Those are just kind of, in a way, as important, you know, as the things you're doing with clients. 

24:51 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, there's something to be said about mental health, your own inner peace. You know you're only as if you're not, if you don't have everything situated internally, you can't be doing what's best for you, for your clients. If you're a little bit more rattled in that sense and you know it doesn't have to be basketball If people like hiking or other things that keep them going, that's, that's totally fine, you know yeah. 

25:12 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, personally, for me it's a walk, you know I'm like, I've like, even though it's getting cold here, you know I, I'm, I'm still bundling up and going out and taking walks a couple of times a day, because to me that's, you know, getting my mind reset, getting a, you know, into a good place mentally, where I can then prepared to do things for other people. Is is important to them as it is to me, right? 

25:35 - Justin (Guest)
So that's the funny thing too. When I do my one Wednesday run for basketball, it's probably the most intense games, because this is like midweek for all these guys that they're doing their grind and everyone looks forward to ball. To kind of release all that tension in that sense. 

25:53 - Mel (Host)
Um, well, speaking of tension and the things that give you that, um, what are some of the biggest changes? Uh, cause, you know changes can definitely be. You know they can be, uh, relieving on the backside, but they can be kind of tense. What are some of the biggest changes you've seen in the real estate industry, as you've been in this career now for nine years? 

26:13 - Justin (Guest)
I'd say, you know, just shifting between buyers and sellers markets. You know, I'd say that's. You know, in previous years, when interest rates were more favorable, you know times were good, even for retail and office. You can get really good rents. Like you know, it was more on the landlord side and now you know it's shifting otherwise and hopefully it gets better in 2025. 

26:38
But, especially for office and retail, I think it's going to take several years for San Francisco, and Oakland for that matter, to get the workforce back to what it was pre-COVID. But it's just adjusting that shift and having these conversations with your clients. They have these expectations, whether it's multifamily, retail or office, that the price is here. But because of all these mitigating factors, it's having those hard conversations. And you know, especially for loan maturity as well, for some of these higher price commercial properties, you know when the loans do, what's the plan? Right, right. And the evaluation of the property was much higher before, especially in downtown San Francisco. It might be significantly lower. And what is the game plan? Right, right? Yeah, those are the conversations we're having now. 

27:31 - Mel (Host)
Yeah. 

27:51 - Justin (Guest)
Well, how do you kind of stay ahead of those kinds of trends so that you going on throughout commercial real estate? In regards to my off time, I network. I'm very much involved in a nonprofit called ARIA, which is Asian Real Estate Association of America. I'm also involved in CCIM, which is another commercial real estate intensive organization. But, you know, going to different events, stay at the markets, learning about different trends. You know, speaking to my peers you get a better sense, not only on a macro level but even on a micro level, of what's going on in the Bay Area. 

28:30 - Mel (Host)
So, from your own experience recently, are there any trends that you're seeing that are kind of starting out that people should be aware of, should be paying attention to, you know, right now, as the market is possibly going through another shift? 

28:45 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, I think multifamily is pretty stable. You know there's always going to be a need for housing. I think that you know, at least on the local level, in terms of public perception and feeling safe, I think that policy is definitely heading in the right direction from what it was four years ago, so hopefully that that should improve multifamily in that sense. I think that retail is always. You know you're not going to have your big Sears floor space. Like you know, retail is is getting better, but it's just it's shifting in a lot of ways. You know, for retail plazas, every 10, 15 years they have to adapt to the consumer. You know what is the new consumer? What do they want? You know what are the food trends, what are? You know how do people shop? Obviously, amazon and e-commerce is a big factor now, so they had to adjust their playing field in that sense. But it's good that you know post-COVID, that people are going out there and you know spending money and doing what we were doing before the pandemic happened. 

29:51 - Mel (Host)
In my area. You know, nobody ever expected food trucks would be, as you know, common or as good you know as they are, and you know that left a lot of brick and mortars unhappy about it, until some of the brick and mortars decided, well, you know what we can. We can actually have a food truck and go send it to these events too. And then, you know, here's our brick and mortar name in front of new audiences and, you know, in new environments, and I think it's one of those you know kinds of things that nobody saw that trend coming and all of a sudden it's now relied on by a number of people. I mean delivery. 

30:21 - Justin (Guest)
Oh my God Right, people take out delivery like it's, it's, it's, it's nutty, you know. 

30:29 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, I mean, people definitely are of the mind sometimes and I think that that's probably you know something with uh, with people who are newer coming up, that they can just pick up the phone or they can go to their app and they can order something, and while to some degree, sure, that's true, but but you know, you're definitely you know a kind of a, a hands-on business. I would, I would think where you're really. You know, have you seen any kind of trends you know in uh, your industry like that. 

30:58 - Justin (Guest)
That that people are kind of thinking is a is a good thing. 

31:00
Yeah, I mean, I'd say most restaurants right now, the uh and, mind you, the business model some, some of them work, um, but that traditional sit-down restaurants with the full, full kitchen and and the floor space in that sense, um, while there is a need in terms of new businesses, that everyone's pushing for what we call a QSR, which is a quick service restaurant like a Chipotle, something more on the go, because you don't need as much square footage, you can get a higher count, especially during lunch and dinner time, and you can still have a really good product Like it's as you've seen with Chipotle, like it's not cheap anymore, like you'd still get a pretty high price point in that sense, really good products Like it's as you've seen with Chipotle, like it's not cheap anymore, like you'd still get a pretty high price point in that sense, and uh, you know the the setup isn't as crazy versus, you know, a full on um sit down restaurant where you know you need a whole team for, for for that business model. 

31:50 - Mel (Host)
Right, right, right, yeah, very different, very different models. Things have definitely, uh, changed in in that, yeah, and I know what you're saying. I mean we could go on about that, but how about let's let's get gears and let's let's talk about some of the people who are listening to this. I mean, obviously you know, as somebody who's been in this for a while and you've been doing this, what are some things that you've learned along the way that you wish some, some advice, maybe that somebody you wish had given you when you were getting started, that you can pass on now to other folks. 

32:20 - Justin (Guest)
Oh well, I mean there's there's a lot of things to keep in mind, but I think the biggest thing is going back to mental health. 

32:26
I mean, you know your first couple of years you're going to you're going to get your butt kicked. 

32:29
There's going to be more L's, more losses, than than anything. I think that a lot of times, especially for commercial real estates I mean, it's a much longer sales cycle. So you know, going back to mentally just grinding on these deals, being persistent, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and continuing to get better, because I will say this, with every transaction I have internally I have a lot more confidence and it resonates for the next conversation with prospective clients, whether a hot lead or what have you. But the more experience you have, the better suited you are and people can feel that because it's not something theoretically speaking of what you learned in the books about real estate, but you've been in the grind, you've done these transactions, you know how hard it is and that will make you so much better in the long run. But for the first couple of years, I'd say just getting your hands immersed in different deals and learning in that sense and and just getting your butt kicked early on will make you better in the long haul. 

33:40 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, well, I think you know, I recall this is something that I've not just heard you know basketball players say, but I've heard other people in business say is that you know you need to take away a lesson from the L's right. You know you need to lose up and you need to lose in so many different ways that there's no other choice than for you to succeed. 

34:01 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, and even going back to basketball. I mean, there's such a big social aspect for basketball it's not you know you play and you know you go home or whatever. There's a big you know on the sidelines, these conversations, you know and you network and you find other ways. You know how do you get better. You often talk to your not your colleagues, but your teammates. You know and slowly you pay your dues and hopefully you become a better player. That's the plan. 

34:30 - Mel (Host)
And I think that's, you know, one of the reasons why you know, working with other people, having networks, having people who are you know, who are you know in that kind of mentor relationship, can be really good, because you'll have somebody who on the sidelines is going to say, hey, this is a pretty common mistake that I'm seeing you make and helping that person to navigate their way through that. What are some of the common mistakes that you see people who are kind of new to this do? What are some of those? 

34:59 - Justin (Guest)
Well, your analogy to basketball, to commercial real estate, is perfect. It's being coachable, because not everyone wants to hear you keep missing the shots or you keep not getting the listing. Here's why Not everyone wants to hear that. I think being humble and taking a step back and being open-minded in that sense and sometimes there are things where you might be like you're doing this for a reason or we can agree to disagree, but at least having an open perspective to hear people out and make your assessment from there that's a life lesson, right lesson right, yeah, yeah. 

35:33 - Mel (Host)
I think being coachable is one of those things in so many ways in life. If I was to go rock climbing today sure, I did it when I was in my twenties but I would definitely hire somebody to say no, this is how you want to do that. I don't want to be a hundred feet up making a bad decision like that. 

35:49 - Justin (Guest)
So, yeah, the things that I did before in my twenties for basketball. I'm not as nimble to do it in my late 30s now, exactly, exactly, yeah, you have to evolve. 

35:59 - Mel (Host)
You know you definitely do. Yeah, and being coachable, I think, is going to work in your favor, and not just real estate, but kind of in any area of your life. That's right. Where is a resource? How can people locate a resource that you know, whether it's a book, a website, an app that you're using, that's really helped you in your business, that you could recommend other people kind of investigate, look into? 

36:27 - Justin (Guest)
I mean I use SF Business Times, I use CoStar, I use Crexie. Those are platforms specifically to commercial real estates, not only, at least for Crexie and CoStar. Not only do they have listings but you know they have general trends that go on within the Bay Area. I always try to stay on top of news in that sense. I mean you know there's plenty of sales books. In that sense I'll just leave it at that yeah, no, that's great. 

36:56 - Mel (Host)
I mean, you've named a couple of things that I think are helpful so, you know, if somebody is looking into your area, I think that would be a great place for them to start. And you know, I find sometimes one tool leads to another. 

37:09 - Justin (Guest)
Sometimes yeah, and you know, in terms of commercial real estate, in terms of education, specifically CCIM, which is Certified Commercial Investment Member, that's an organization that does offer intensive investment classes where you'll do the exercise of underwriting a deal, you'll do the aspect of the marketing in terms of demographics for a retail property, a lot of macro level stuff. If you really want to invest and put the time into it, I'd say that that would be probably the best resource if you really want to hone down in commercial real estate. 

37:45 - Mel (Host)
Nice, I appreciate the recommendation there. If somebody is kind of doing, well, they've got these things down, they've done the investment of time, they've researched these things, they know what they're doing but they're not in a position to scale what's something that they could then kind of do as a first step to start scaling up their career in the industry. 

38:06 - Justin (Guest)
Definitely your farm, meaning that wherever you want to specialize whether it's in your neighborhood or your parents' neighborhood or somewhere that you're comfortable with where you want to target, just getting to know all the players and going back to it what's your product type? Was it multifamily, retail or a little bit of everything? Like starting off, it's good to be a little bit more honed down because, especially when you start off like you're so scatterbrained at times, you know keep it simple and then build upon identifying who are the players there and, obviously, to market yourself and farm. That said, area Nice. 

38:48 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, I think definitely. You know, building a network of people is never going to be a bad thing, and you know trusted people. You can bounce questions off. It's always going to come back and help you. And then you find out that you're the one answering questions. 

39:01 - Justin (Guest)
So yeah, full circle right. 

39:04 - Mel (Host)
Right, right, right. So what's I mean? I think you've touched upon this already in a way, but what are some of the ways that you've used, you know to techniques, to build it and maintain strong relationships with clients? 

39:15 - Justin (Guest)
Follow-up it's follow-up. It's not very complicated. In that sense, whether it's residential or commercial, real estate is always going to be a relationship industry and I hope that, whether it's Zillow or AI and all these other things that are theoretically trying to outsource real estate, but at the end of the day it still is a relationship business. It still is guiding your clients, whether it's investment or owner, user or for residential, helping a newly wedded couple start their family, having that expertise and being that beacon of light, that guidance. 

39:56
In that sense, Just understanding that that will always be a big part of real estate and just remembering little things. In that sense I mean this can be very small, but a happy birthday or Christmas, or just maybe the anniversary of when you sold said property, or just maybe the anniversary of when you sold said property. There are many different ways to touch a client and, more so than anything, that the highest form of passing it forward from the client is a referral, meaning that I trust you so much I will put my good friends with you because I trust that you will do a good job as well. Love, a good referral. 

40:38 - Mel (Host)
It's the cherry on top. Yeah, really, it really is, and I think that you've you kind of touched upon this too. I mean, one of the other ways is, you know, like you know, so you're seeing something shift. You talked about that planning that you're doing with those clients and you know making sure, hey, are you still on that plan? Because the way I'm seeing things, it might be start to make some take some action on that plan if you weren't already. 

41:04 - Justin (Guest)
That's right. Is it a short-term plan? Is it a five-year plan? Is it a 10-year plan? Some of these commercial deals they know the market's bad, it's okay. They're just hanging on to it until things get better. Other people yeah, they need to have an exit strategy and cash out and shift to the next thing. But that's okay. Everyone's different. 

41:22 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah. And plans, you know, for people definitely change. I know that I've abruptly changed some of mine. You know, like children, things like that, can you know, can sometimes do that to you. As far as how you've been able to develop yourself, you know, do you believe the key to or I guess I'd say what would you say is the key to a strong personal brand in real estate, how did you develop your brand? You know, again, setting yourself apart from others in your area. 

41:54 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little bit more quirky than your typical commercial real estate agents. 

41:59
You know I'm comfortable in my skin but trying to be at least what the cool kids do now being a little bit more social media savvy. You know, commercial real estate, from a marketing perspective, is always one step behind on residential, just in terms of you know how you market a property or like just different things to put yourself out there. I always feel that commercial is one step behind and maybe it's because they're an old boys club or they're more traditional, but eventually, you know, things do shift, uh, to what the residential heads do. So I think for myself, being younger, it's to my advantage where you know the older heads are not doing social media, they are not informing clients or, you know, educating in that sense on a platform that they often overlook. That's actually one of my 2025 business plan goals is to you know everyone's a little bit shy at times, but to put yourself out there more and hopefully maybe get some more business, but it's something where I would like to see how that goes. 

43:03
Well, it's an evolving world and you have to evolve with it, and I think one of the things that happens is that people reach a point where they feel like they don't need to educate themselves anymore on those new things, those new trends in some ways, and I think that's you know, that's when you get old, right right and I think you know starting off with commercial real estate too, like just getting out there and feeling uncomfortable, whether it's, you know, an appointment, a cold call, or going on a podcast, or putting yourself out there on social media, like you know there's there's so many different ways you can go about your business and, you know, being a trendsetter is certainly pretty cool too. 

43:39 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, it certainly isn't a bad thing, but putting yourself out there I mean you know there runs the risk sometimes of that not going as planned. Do you have any stories of when a client relationship didn't go as planned and how you managed your way through that situation? 

43:54 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, no, I've had a couple of lessons in that sense. But well, if you really don't know your stuff, you shouldn't speak upon it, you'll get in trouble. I know they say fake it till you make it, but especially for these bigger deals, when you see something where you're not too sure about I won't say it's burned deals, but it hasn't been pretty in that sense. And it gives me a lesson too, like you know, for one I shouldn't have said that aloud. And second is, why did I not know that? Like I should be better? Right, it's one of those humbling lessons in that sense. And you know, that's why I'm on a team and that's why I work with other colleagues in the industry to to know what I'm good at and what I'm not good at and to partner up accordingly. 

44:37 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, Well, I think that's one of the good things is, if you have somebody you can lean on for those areas where you're maybe, yeah, that's a good thing. 

44:46 - Justin (Guest)
Yeah, with commercial real estate there's so many different ways. I mean there's hotels, there's apartments. There's a slew of slew of commercial real estate and I'm not going to be good. I'm probably not going to be good at a hotel or a gas station, but I'm probably gonna be good at apartments and you know what. 

45:02 - Mel (Host)
That's okay right, yeah, yeah, I think. Uh, you know, as they say, the riches are in the niches and uh, you know, you try to do everything. Uh, you're not going to do anything. 

45:11 - Justin (Guest)
Well, yeah, I mean, like I said early, I'll try, but sometimes I'm like I'm a little out of my league, you know. 

45:19 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah, well, all right. Well, let's move from some of the humbling moments to you know something that you know maybe it's a little boastful something that has been maybe your proudest moment that's happened in real estate. 

45:31 - Justin (Guest)
I mean, just on a side note, I mentioned ARIO, asian Real Estate Association of America. I mean, just on a side note, I mentioned ARIA, asian Real Estate Association of America. I mean that was something. It's unpaid, it's a nonprofit, obviously, but in terms of leadership skills and just intrinsically getting better as a person, I joined ARIA in the Greater East Bay chapter pretty close to when I started real estate and you know I started with that organization, you know, obviously for business, for networking, just like you know right. But then, you know, my broker told me to get involved with ARIA, but not just attend, but, you know, make an impact and that's how you're going to have a more fulfilling experience with an organization. So I did join the board and then fast forward like it was crazy, but you know, I became president in 2019 for the board, which was awesome. Being so young and, you know, holding a board down, let alone my own business, was quite a challenge. 

46:30
But 2019 also rolled over into COVID, which no one saw coming, and the funny thing about that was this isn't all real estate related, but I'm very proud of it in the sense where I was president for two years in 2020 and 2021. And while we couldn't do a lot of things that you typically can do for a non-pandemic sort of year, but you know we did fundraise and we did give back to the community. You know, at a time of need where hospitals needed more masks, you know we fundraised you know over $15,000 and dispersed that to several hospitals throughout the Bay Area and then we were able to get some recognition. You know ARIA is a national organization and for one of those years we got chapter of the year and it was probably one of the younger presidents I think I still am now that I think about it but you know one of the younger presidents to lead a chapter when no one really knew what to do, and you know, even for my own business, just how I talk and how I approach clients like that whole experience was very empowering for me and just just to lead an organization made me better for it. 

47:43
And you fast forward to 2021, when there were a lot of hate crimes in the Bay area, especially in the Asian, asian community. I actually spoke up on behalf of Aria in Oakland, chinatown, and talked about some of the injustices that were going on and called it out. And I mean, you know, I came with the intent to get business for real estates but with the pandemic and all these other things that happened next thing. You know, I'm at a rally and definitely outside of my comfort zone, right, right, definitely outside of my comfort zone. But when I take a step back and reflect on what I did, what I accomplished and, from a leadership perspective, how much I grew, that is invaluable and that's something that I'm very proud of. 

48:24 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, well, there's something to be said about helping other people. It's one of those things that is so rewarding in a different way than financial can be, and there's so many ways to do that right. You could be the person who brings you know a can to a food drive of food when you know when you're down on your luck, but you can be a person who stands up in front of other people being very uncomfortable. You know saying these things. Or you know fundraising for the hospital. I mean those, and the cool thing is that you did so many of those in such a short period of time. That's really. I mean, pat yourself on the back, if you haven't already, because that's pretty awesome, right, and that's the thing too. 

49:01 - Justin (Guest)
I mean, obviously we have real estates and then there's basketball and all that, but there's other things too. I like to give back whenever I can, and that's one of the things that I do, so yeah, I would say if you're feeling down, give something to somebody who needs it, man, you will. 

49:17 - Mel (Host)
You will immediately feel, feel a heck of a lot better. And I just wanted to say the ARIA, as you've been calling it A-R-E-A-A, am I correct? That is correct, yeah, yeah. So yeah, if people want to check that out, see if there's a chapter near them, you know, I think that would be pretty cool for a lot of people and might, you know, might again lead to some of those kind of networking and growth moments that people could be looking for. That's right. 

49:40 - Justin (Guest)
You know national organization, different chapters, and I just so happen to be in the Bay Area, but you know, I'd say collectively, like we're family, it's a very solid organization. 

49:53 - Mel (Host)
Nice. What do you see kind of going forward for you? I mean, you've made all of these accomplishments already. I mean you've been the president of this chapter. You've been in this business now for nine years. Over the next five to 10 years, what are some goals, some dreams that you are kind of working toward putting together for yourself? I mean straight up. 

50:12 - Justin (Guest)
you know, doing more and bigger deals. That's something that everyone wants. But right now I'm currently on a team, but maybe in the next five, 10 years do my own thing, to be honest. 

50:24 - Mel (Host)
Would you want to build your own team, or would you want to be completely independent or kind of TBD? 

50:29 - Justin (Guest)
Let's do TBD for now. I like the aspect of a team. I think through my experience with Aria and the leadership that has certainly done well for me in that sense. But you know, right now we're in a tougher market and maybe I'm just being a little little little scared. But to make that jump, that would be something to to keep in mind down down the road. And I'll leave it at that. 

50:54 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, hey, you know, and yeah, dreams you know, kind of shift. It's cool to think of you know doing these things on your. You know more on your own and I think everybody likes being surrounded by a group in some way or another. You know that that are helping you and so that's pretty cool. I'd love to see where you end up going, you know, with this in in five to 10 years. 

51:14 - Justin (Guest)
So yeah, I mean, life is funny that way, like you know going when I was 27 in LA, then going into commercial real estate and then being with Aria and speaking on the podium, and you know, life takes you in a bunch of different places. 

51:28 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, unexpected, and usually in, uh, in some good ways. And uh, what? What's your legacy that you want to, uh, you know, leave the real estate world with? I mean, you know you often don't get, I think, statues, uh, you know, but, uh, but, what's your, I guess, the profession better for you, having been in it. 

51:49 - Justin (Guest)
I'd say right now it's happening already where it's the change of hands between some of the older commercial real estate guys that have been sent in their ways or maybe not as forthcoming for sharing deals and whatnot. Then there's the new guys in town that are, I won't say, changing practices within commercial real estate but opening the business to the table. In that sense, and I think it is happening with the chains of guard, there's a lot more buyers that are getting into commercial real estate. And I'm just saying this for Old Boys Club it used to be kind of narrow and closed on who does these deals before, and that's changing. And I'm just saying this for old boys club. It used to be kind of narrow and closed on who does these deals before, and that's changing and I'm going to be a part of that. 

52:27 - Mel (Host)
So yeah, breaking down silos is a is really good, whether they're information or they're just kind of like you know, like these towers of people have built for themselves. Sometimes knocking those down, leveling them for people who are coming in can be a wonderful, wonderful thing. So thank you for your part in that. All right, well, let's, you know, get away from that. I was, you know, kind of in depth looking at the future but looking across all of the properties that you've worked with, what are some of the most interesting or unusual ones that you've ever worked with? You know either building or, I guess you know client or some combination. 

53:05 - Justin (Guest)
I mean that 35 unit multifamily I mentioned before that was in. That was in Stockton. It wasn't in the best part of town and you know I had to get their cooperation for inspections and whatnot and other weird things where I don't necessarily feel safe. Other weird things where I don't necessarily feel safe there's that I've done some deals in the tender loan in San Francisco. 

53:32
Commercial real estate isn't always as pretty as like the luxury homes you see for residents and people, let's just say that yeah, and I think I've done some mixed use deals where the whole thing should honestly just get demolished because like it's in terrible shape and I don't know if it's safe. You know, you see a slew of those things that get done and it comes up with the territory. 

53:52 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah. So we'll leave it at that. If you weren't in this world, like you know, you've probably, you know, done some different things before you got into real estate. But if it wasn't for real estate, what do you think? What do you see yourself doing? If, all of a sudden, tomorrow, you're just like you know what I'm done, what would you shift to? What would you pivot to? 

54:14 - Justin (Guest)
Well, I mean, I know we're on this podcast. I'm very much into sports. I do my own. It's like a personal, you know, my personal project. But you know I do a sports podcast called Just the West. My name is Justin, you know, just covering the NFC West. So I probably start with something with sports. I'm a very passionate San Francisco 49ers fan, warriors fan, giants fan, but football would be number one for me. So, in regards to something that I really like outside of real estate, it would probably be something in the sports mantra of where, where I plug whether it's marketing or sales, I don't know but I'm I'm super competitive and that's something that I would look into. 

54:57 - Mel (Host)
All right, we get that. You're competitive, got the sports. 

55:01 - Intro (Host)
All right. 

55:02 - Mel (Host)
What is something that people maybe don't know about you, but probably should? 

55:07 - Justin (Guest)
Oh, you know, going back to Aria, Asian real estate and whatnot, I mean I have a very unique story where I'm fifth generation Chinese. My family actually came here in the 1880s San Francisco. They were around for 50 something years and they couldn't buy property because they weren't allowed to the Wong Laundry thing that you always hear. That did happen. It's a real thing. I'd say that early on growing up I didn't know I'm not white enough, I'm not Asian enough. I'm unique in that sense. My parents had a very American childhood and so, yeah, my family has been around and we have a lot of history in the United States, in the Bay Area, and so real estate has been very well for my family and it will continue to be a big part for my family and you know it will continue to be a big part. 

56:08 - Mel (Host)
Nice, well, that's good. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely quite a few generations back. I mean, I know some people who have far fewer generations in this land, so that's pretty cool to know that you've been around, your family's been around, and in that area too, for that long. So, yeah, no for sure. Now, this is one of those things that's just kind of more for fun and it's one of the ways that we like to kind of conclude every episode of the Inner Circle podcast with it's to ask you the question, as we work toward the end if you could buy and live in any place in the world, any property in the world, no limitations on price, location, size, style, et cetera where would it be and why? Why would that appeal to you? 

56:50 - Justin (Guest)
This doesn't really I mean in terms of pragmatically, but I'm a kid at heart. The idea of living in Japan would be super cool. I love the food, I love the culture, I'm very much into anime and all that, but I know that real estate is a little bit limited and it might be smaller. So I mean, obviously I I try to get, get a better place in Japan, but that would be something that would be pretty cool. And I, I love the culture, I love how they they have manners, they, you know their respect to one another. The food that would be something that would be pretty cool for me. 

57:26 - Mel (Host)
I think the layers of craftsmanship alone, where they think you're a beginner at something until you've been doing it for 20 years, it's very unique to us Americans, yeah. 

57:37 - Justin (Guest)
I marvel at it for sure. So I marvel at it for sure, yeah. 

57:42 - Mel (Host)
All right. Well, let's look at something else here. I guess what I would want to know is are there any other kind of funny stories that you've had that you'd love to share with people here, Whether it's something that happened while you were showing a property or while you were doing that final tour, final walkthrough with a client? Is there something weird that's happened in your experiences? 

58:12 - Justin (Guest)
I won't say it was weird, it was kind of scary. I showed a property and there was a squatter, there was someone that was not welcome to the place, and you know it's like. You know I won't say it's like a robbery, but you know, instantly my nerves just jumped up, oh yeah, yeah. And then I took the client you know get back and close, and I had to call the listing agent and you know they called the cops and whatnot. Yeah, I mean that was in the Bay Area. 

58:48 - Mel (Host)
That's in Oakland. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You never know how those situations are going to go, so yeah, getting the client out of there. 

58:54 - Justin (Guest)
I think that's the right thing. And, mind you, when you show properties you do put yourself in, depending on the neighborhood, but you know, uh, not not in the best part of town. You gotta be very wary, you gotta be very street smarts. Yeah, like uh, it's a thing for sure. 

59:09 - Mel (Host)
Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely, uh, definitely understand that. Yeah, you gotta, it's good to know the lay of the land. It's good to have somebody local, you know, like yourself, who who understands. Uh, you know the street smarts that are required for that, all right. Well, that's basically as far as what I have. That's everything I got. But obviously people who are listening to this are going to want to know you know who you are, how they can connect with you. You know, maybe they're also interested in, you know, some of the teams that you mentioned. Maybe they're interested in your pickup basketball games, how, how they reach you, how, where can people find you? Or you know you got some clients out there who want to work with you as well. 

59:49 - Justin (Guest)
If you want to go for social stuff, it's pretty easy Instagram at the underscore J, underscore Wong. Twitter at the same thing the underscore J, underscore Wong. Also, my blog is on Spotify. It's just the West and NFC West podcast. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things too is I'm open to social media. I'm trying to be better. So, like I said, one of my goals for 25 is to put more real estate intensive content out there, so you might see me on, who knows, you might see me on TikTok, I don't know. I still got to figure that out. 

01:00:23 - Mel (Host)
All right. Well, hey, you know what? We'll tag you. We'll get things started on getting you out there in social media. We'll tag you in this podcast when it goes out so that people can also do that and you can share us with your network so people maybe who haven't seen this side of you can see a little bit more of that. Excellent, I appreciate your time. This was awesome, definitely. Thank you very much for joining us, and I'm just going to wrap this up, justin, because that concludes this episode of the Inner Circle podcast, and I hope that you, justin, and I hope that everybody listening, found some enlightening things here and sure you have some great takeaways now on how to take a real estate career to the next level. So, thanks again, everybody, for tuning in. You can find us on Spotify, itunes, youtube and Instagram at America's Inner Circle and again, thank you very much, justin, for joining us and we'll see everybody next time.